Arguments in favor of SBMM & "Game is Dying"

Discussion in 'General Titanfall discussion' started by FunkyLobster, Dec 27, 2016.

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  1. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
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    Yes, I personally would gladly wait longer if I knew I was getting an even match every time. But if the algorithm is constructed properly and optimized you really wouldn't have to wait much longer than you do now.

    Plus, there is an important distinction that needs to be made here. I would start with the TF1 matchmaking system and just add the good algorithm to that, because you may wait initially on that first game to get a good match of players, but then unless someone leaves you are pretty much set for the next hour or two or until you decide ot leave. The new system makes you wait longer between games than TF1, because it sucks everyone back into the entire pool of players for the lobby you are in and creates a match from scratch. That is just rediculous and makes it even harder to create a good algorithm, because any time you add is felt every 15 minutes before every game, where with the TF1 system, you would only feel it before your first game, but then you would be good to go after that.

    That doesn't surprise me, because there are a lot of new players that just came in and as long as the user base is pretty big it will mask a poor matchmaking system somewhat. I'm more concerned with getting it right so that a year or two down the road those who still want to play can get even matches with an extremely small user base. My point is that when things don't appear so bad, now is the time to really improve it, because if you don't have it right, as the user base drops, the poor matchmaking becomes more and more obvious and as games become more lopsided, people get frustrated and you start losing people exponentially fast.
     
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  2. DARK BAWGS

    DARK BAWGS Generation 5
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    Omega, sorry I missed your post...

    I certainly didn't intend to imply that this is an ongoing occurrence. Quite the contrary, my personal stats show that I am running at 50% wins on both consoles and most games are reasonably balanced. I was merely trying to draw everyone's attention to a potential problem. If this happened once it can start to happen too frequently and this is due to the fact that we are seeing more players on-line and this brings out the 'clans' that think it is fun to destroy another team.

    The way Respawn have set this up a player can't determine before a match who or what he/she is going up against. We don't see a pre-game roster with "Party" symbols or players "Gen" status as in other games including TF1. With this info I can decide if I really want to go against a party of 6, Gen 10ers or not - at least I have a choice.

    On one of the COD based forums I was on there was a raging debate about the fact that "noobs' should welcome the chance to go against far superior forces so they can learn. That is such a load of BS it is laughable. You definitely learn playing with and against better players but not when the score is 400 - 13, this will eventually chase players away. Remember the future of this franchise is going to be built on all those "noobs" so we need them to stay and grow in the game.

    As always you make good points and I have no argument with them, just wanted to draw attention to a potential problem that concerns me for the future. If you had read many of my past posts you would likely get a sense that I constantly preach for the long term future of the game and its franchise. I do this because I love the game and want it to do well going forward.

    HAPPY NEW YEAR
     
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  3. FunkyLobster

    FunkyLobster Generation 1

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    This is exactly it. The real threat isn't this game dying in a few months, but the far future. Lots of people came in for black friday and the holiday season, so those 5k players on PC or 40k players on PS4/XB1 may or may not be here for long. The game needs some staying power, and that staying power isn't just going to come from a sheer volume of new content in the free DLC updates (although that is a really big deal!) It's going to come from the game getting you into fun matches where you're fighting friendly players of a similar skill level.

    Even in the best case scenario where the new players are totally gripped by the game and play it for the rest of its lifetime, then even newer players like the black friday buyers of 2017 are going to get their butts kicked by them and not get into any matches with other players of their skill level. The playerbase will stagnate. SBMM is going to benefit everyone, and it's going to keep the playerbase alive and bring in lots of new players.
     
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  4. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    Ok but as I said before sbmm helps new players but that's it. When those same new players get to a certain k/d the matches will start being very hard and frustrating . This is what happened in advanced warfare. Beginning players did well and had fun. But once you hit that certain KD the games became a sweat fest and very competitive. And often times connection quality was overlooked to just match skills. I know they denied this but it seemed very apparent to me and others.

    I really don't see anything wrong with having challenging matches but also have the chance to have more casual matches and softer lobbies mixed in. Yes of course there has to be some level of sbmm but too much of it only benefits new beginning players and it hurts the veteran players.

    There are arguments on both sides, I see pros and cons with both approaches. So far this game reminds me of mw2 with the matchmaking where you get your fair share of blowout wins and blowout losses and also your close very evenly matched games. But for the most part I have had an amazing time playing this game online and have only gotten frustrated rarely.

    If the new players are really getting slaughtered every single match and every day then perhaps that wouldn't be good , but I dunno that hasn't happened to me the whole time I been playing this game so far.

    you make very good points but to me it just doesn't seem like a clear cut decision one way or the other
     
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  5. FunkyLobster

    FunkyLobster Generation 1

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    I don't disagree that it mainly benefits new players, infact that's my very point, but whatever benefits new players benefits returning players like us. It gives us a bigger playerbase to match with and in turn, a longer lifespan for the game we love to play. New players will be more compelled to continue playing, and the longer they play, the better they'll get, which turns them into the kind of players we get queued into.

    Unfortunately until Respawn releases some numbers, we're mostly sharing anecdotal evidence. I've had a fair amount of some pretty even games, especially on competitive gamemodes like CTF and LTS, but most the time it's been like you said, most matches are big blowouts where one team just steamrolls the other and there's no hope of a miraculous turnaround. I've played a lot of FPS games like I've already said, and steamrolls don't really bother me considering my history with Team Fortress, but for someone unlike me it would be a pretty discouraging first impression of the game. I think it's more important for Respawn to focus on the game's longevity than the convenience of veteran players.
     
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  6. ensc

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    Exactly! It is nice to have a good challenge once in awhile, but if it feels impossible or hopeless who would want to stick around for that? This is what infuriated me with TF1. The matchmaking was non-existent and you would have a block of six Gen 10 friends on one side and all of the new players would get randomly thrown in on the other side, so they were way outskilled and usually outnumbered on top of it. Every time I saw this it made me furious, because I kept thinking, "How many thousands of new players who might have possibly stayed and built the user base got driven away by this crap?" TF1 would have been much more successful and would still have a decent size user base if it had a rock solid matchmaking system right out of the gate. I just don't get why the devs don't get this and make it a absolute #1 priority, because it is one of the most important pieces that affects the success and life of your game.
     
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  7. ensc

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    Thanks buddy! I really appreciate you. You totally get it.
     
  8. ensc

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    You do make a good point Omega, but all I want is an even game. I don't mind if I get beat fair and square, but I can't tolerate losing only because the other team was given an unfair advantage to start with more #'s or skill. I would rather have the sweat fests than lopsided games, especially because of Funky's point below:

    I want there to be as many players still around as possible one or two years down the road.
     
  9. DARK BAWGS

    DARK BAWGS Generation 5
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    Thank you, that is the point I have been trying to preach - "short term pain for long term gain" - we can only hope this is their strategy.
     
  10. DARK BAWGS

    DARK BAWGS Generation 5
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    You guys all make good points and to argue with them would be like attacking "motherhood". I like to think of balancing the game like a "bell curve". For example if a player had 100 Ampted Harpoint games the ideal score spread experience should look something like this...

    2017-01-01_1102.png
    This is of course not likely to happen but should be the goal for Respawn when thinking about matchmaking. If there was this distribution players would never leave because they would have a pretty good experience over their 100 games. i believe that the matchmaking would ensure that as players got better they would be in matches with players at their level and skill, etc. The key is keeping a large player base so they have a good pool to choose from.

    Omega, I agree and Advanced Warefare was a big part of the reason this COD Addict left the franchise, of course IW was the straw that broke this camels back - I was a CODer from the very beginning!

    I know this is somewhat simplistic if not idealistic but fun to think about and be hopeful about. The challenge is how to achieve this type of curve.
     
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  11. ensc

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    Very nice chart DARK! Yes that would be an ideal score spread and as you say it should be the goal. Thanks for sharing that.
     
  12. ensc

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    #32 ensc, Jan 1, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
    I would like to clarify something, because I just realized that it is possible that we might be talking about some slightly different things here in this thread and I want to make sure I explain my vision of how my matchmaking algorithm as well as any comments I've made in this thread would work, because if it was implemented as I envision it would actually result in DARK's bell curve with the sweat fests that Omega mentioned limited to the green bar in the middle.

    I believe it is possible that I may have misunderstood what Funky meant by SBMM right from the start. Please correct me if I am wrong here. I thought he meant that it would make sure the sides were evenly matched. However, the more I think about Omega's comments about the sweat fests, I am wondering if what you mean by SBMM is that you would really only be playing against players of the same level as you. For example, if you were a Gen 1, then you would only play against other Gen1s. If you were a Gen 10, then you would only play against other Gen 10s. Because if that is what you are thinking then yes, that would absolutely be an increasingly hard sweat fest as you move up in experience. And that also would give the newer players the best experience to get acclimated to the game. However, that is not what my matchmaking algorithm is talking about at all. Well, let me rephrase that. It would not apply unless their were a group of friends or a clan of Gen 10s who insisted on playing as a block. However, you can break up that block and play seperately. It is your choice to play in a block or not, but it would give you an entirely different experience (sweat fest while in the block, most likely somewhere else on the bell curve if not).

    Here is what I would do:
    1) First, I would use TF1's matchmaking outline where:
    a) As long as you have 4 players you can start the game with 2 on each side (don't need to wait for 12). GETS YOU IN THE FIRST GAME OF YOUR SESSION FASTER
    b) Once a game is started (a match is made), you will remain with those players for the entirety of your one or two hour session unless some decide to leave. MAKES THE WAIT TIME BETWEEN SUBSEQUENT GAMES MINIMAL
    2) As players enter a lobby (either individuals or blocks), I would not put them directly into a game, but rather I would put them in a que.
    3) They would remain in that que unless someone else that matched their skill level (individual or block) also entered the que.
    4) Once I had a match of 2 individuals or a match of 2 blocks, then I would fit them into opposite sides of an existing game if there was room or create a new game for them.

    I think a picture is worth 1000 words, so let's see if this clarifies things better:
    upload_2017-1-1_14-29-55.png
    Maybe with this clarification, my mathcmaking algorithm would make more sense:
    http://www.titanfall-community.com/threads/team-balance-matchmaking.2009/#post-46139

    NOTE: Also, I'm only using Gens for sake of example, but my algorithm would look much deeper at experience/skill/effectiveness, but the principle would work the same way.
     
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  13. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    Like pilot vs pilot last night was like this Kill death kill death kill death kill death kill death etc... I was finishing most games 15-15 , 15-17 , 11-11 and that's me playing my hardest to just play even, i easily could have had disastrous games if I wasn't fully focused. There was sbmm in every game last night lol. This is what sbmm does , it basically just makes everything even. At first you might think that makes sense and that's how things should be BUT when you find yourself playing even every single game because your in a super competitive lobby game in game out the fun factor starts getting thrown out the Window. There's no more going on runs or fun kill streaks or having big games (which everyone loves to have in these kind of twitch arcade shooters ) .

    I like challenging games , and when the scores are close it can be awesome. But when you have sbmm like this every game it won't be fun the way you think . When The whole game is kill death kill death kill death you will find a bunch of people walking away from the game as well . Because MOST people want to play casual matches which are challenging but also a mix of softer lobbies so you can show off the skills you have learned and to show your improvement in the game. You can't show any improvement when the guy your going up against is always just as good as you if not better. Ultimately what it results to is just EVEN stats , even matches. This is fine when it's competitive play or tournament play but everybody doesn't always want to be forced to play in super competitive lobbies all the time.

    Sbmm helps new comers to the game which I agree with , I know that is the point that you guys are bringing up but I'm just saying if it helps new players and alienates the veteran players then that isn't good solution. It just has to be balanced where there is a good amount of challenging lobbies but enough softer mixed lobbies as well. Having sbmm in every game will make for an awful online experience for most people. Just use advanced warfare as the example. It's been tried before and it was a disaster. The system has to just be balanced a little better.

    Again it may seem by my post that I just want easy games haha but that really isn't the case. Honestly for anybody who played advanced warfare for any length of time knows what I'm talking about. You cannot have that matchmaking system again , it truly was awful.
     
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  14. ensc

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    See, Omega's post here makes me think even more that I had a misunderstanding of what you meant by SBMM. Please see my new post I had put above your's Omega, which you probably didn't see, because you were typing your's while I was typing mine. :)
     
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  15. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    EN you are the man. Yes I agree with you. That was perfect. I want to see a mix of skills in the same match. That is the perfect system. It just has to be balanced right for both teams.

    Again I could have misunderstood the conversation but to me SbMM meant it matches you against the same skill as the other player. And as you move up levels in the game you just play in harder and harder games. This was done in advanced warfare and it was the worst online experience I've ever had. Often times quality of connections get overlooked because the main focus is just to grab any player with the skill level the matchmaking is searching for.

    Perhaps what the PERFECT system would be is there is SBMM for new players up to like level 10. And THEN throw them into the main matchmaking system which is what you are proposing EN. A mix of skill levels in the same game. This would please everyone
     
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  16. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    Haha yea that's exactly what happened. And thank you for your reply because you communicated what I was saying but just in much clearer and more specific terms and examples. But yea your system is the ideal system. I know I don't understand things from a technical level the way you do I just know what I experience when I play.
     
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  17. ensc

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    Thanks buddy! I appreciate it. I'm sorry that I misunderstood what SBMM meant this whole time, but I'm glad I finally caught it and was able to clarify. Yes, you are right, it might be nice to almost have a choice of matchmaking system when you enter a game. Do you want SBMM? Or, do you want mixed (which would use an agorithm like mine to create even matches)? If you just used my algorithm though, you could simulate SBMM just by getting in a block of other Gen 10s. So it actually gives you the freedom to have both.

    This does a lot of nice things for you though, in my opinion:
    1) No matter what you can expect an evenly matched game (sweat fests or mixed).
    2) It still allows new players to be challenged, because there will most likely be a mix of higher gens on the other team, but you have equal high gens on your team to hold them at bay so you are not just getting steamrolled.
    3) It prevents blocks or clans of high gens from being bullies and driving new players away, which kills the user base.
    4) It actually kind of discourages blocks or clans of high gens, which I think is a good thing, because yes, they can choose to play that way, but they are always going to have sweat fests and most likely have to wait a little longer to get a game.

    I think all of this would be the best and most healthy thing for the general population and the success and longevity of the game.
     
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  18. ensc

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    Hey, you are a smart cookie Omega and I love your passion. I mainly go by what I feel as well.
     
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  19. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    Yes man sounds to me like that would definitely be the best way to go. Maybe I misunderstood what he meant by sbmm but to me that is what sbmm means. I know it was talked about over and over by the community when advanced warfare came out. So I was just going by that when sbmm was brought up in this topic.

    But your system looks to be the best way to go for everyone. It can be wise to have sbmm for the brand new players up to a certain level. Like level 10. Either they can select it from the beginning or it's just automatic but that would definitely keep new players around longer. Because up to like level 10( or whatever ) they will only play against same level players. This way they don't get run over and go 2-17 and hate the game. But after level 10 the diapers have to come off and now they play in the mixed lobbies. The games will be harder for them but still enjoyable enough because there still will be a few players at a low skill level.
     
  20. Pitch_Invader

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    #40 Pitch_Invader, Jan 2, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
    Preamble to let you know (early) where I'm at: my favorite games have been the Half-Life, Mass Effect, and Titanfall series.

    I have been tempted to quit T2 several times in the past few days.

    I have been playing several hours every day since I got the game on the 28th. On T1, I mainly played Attrition and I was always in the top 3 players in a match. In T2, I have made 3rd a few times out of 50 something matches.

    Everything feels different now. Being thrown in with party players is, imho, a design flaw. Just like having player mics set ON as default, they don't seem to value new players. I have been on the receiving end of several thumpings, where we lost 475 to under 200. It's actually not fun. In T1 it didn't matter if my team was winning or losing because I could still dominate. In T2, if your team is getting pounded, it becomes a carousel of spawn - take two steps - get snuffed, drop a titan - have it get snuffed in 30 seconds. It sucks.

    For me, the engine feels vastly different. It's twitchy now. The visuals are sharper and prettier but the flow is brittle.

    The main grievances I have with T2 are:

    1. It's too much like Call Of Duty, where it's all twitch-fest.
    2. The maps are too small
    3. The maps are nowhere near as creative or fun as T1
    4. They have eliminated the option to play stealthy or with strategy. The only play style that works is constant Rambo motion. You can't actually breathe in the matches.
    5. I think it's a mistake to not deduct points for being killed. T2 makes a players' deaths soar. I've played matches recently where I get killed 5 or 6 times before I score a kill.
    6. The weapons are too strong or the supposed body armor is too weak. I am getting killed from 1000 yards with two shots from a pistol while I'm running and the opponent is running. It's just impossible. Rarely can you survive an attack. In T1 you could escape hits all the time. In T2 you are dead with the first shot.
    7. They still allows grouped/party/clan players to play against randomly generated teams. I think players involved in playing party style should be paired only with other party players.
    8. The grenades - all of them - are too weak. I have thrown grenades and had them explode at any enemy's feet only to have them run away, or worse, turn around and kill me.
    9. I liked Burn Cards. :(
    10. The game doesn't reward creativity or problem-solving in-game, as in, there's no room for strategy. Some weapons are superior in certain maps, but even then it is still twitchy.
    11. The Titans are nonsensical and die way too easily.
    12, For SBMM, they should go back to balancing the teams based on K:D, so that one team is not far overpowering the other. I don't want to play against everyone of the same skill level, but I do want to play on a team that is balanced.
    13. I stopped playing COD because it was just move-die-move-die and weapons like the sniper rifles were unstoppable, when in real life I'd love to see someone jump off a building and hip-fire a sniper rifle backwards 500 yards and score a headshot, like they do in the game. In T2, too many weapons (maybe all of them) are sniper rifle lethal. You can't react to being hit, you're just instantly dead.

    The main accolades I could give T2 are:

    1. The "cheerleader" voices are a lot less annoying now.
    2. The customizable skins.
    3. The grappling hook is fun, but it shouldn't be that easy to kill someone using one.
    4. Less waiting time in the lobby, plus you can edit loadouts in-game.
    5. Phase shift, gravity grenades, incendiary grenades are also very cool.
    6. Melee kills as pilot are awesome.
    7. Having the top 3 graphic after each match.
    8. Factions could be a cool addition, haven't seen how it really plays out just yet.
    9. Lag issues are much less frequent now.

    Anyway, that's my 2 cents plus.
     
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