Attrition is a Steamroll

Discussion in 'General Titanfall discussion' started by FunkyLobster, Jan 13, 2017.

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  1. FunkyLobster

    FunkyLobster Generation 1

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    It's not uncommon for a game of attrition to have a score and scoreboard like the screens seen below. In fact, it's ordinary, and I think we can agree it's not a lot of fun when you're one of the losing players. Why is that scores are almost always dramatically uneven, and why is it that almost every team has one player carrying them?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    It's because the game is all about the snowball effect. Anyone who's played a game of Civilization or something similar should be familiar. The start of the game influences the outcome more than any other part, and a large part of this is thanks to how earning your Titan's meter works.

    To build your titan's meter, you need to earn kills and accomplish objectives, and just generally be proactive during a match. Makes sense, right? A titan is something that should be earned, and it should feel rewarding when you call one down and step into it. And in attrition, the objective is to kill grunts, minions, and other players for points, so building your titan's meter is twofold in this mode.

    And calling down your titan is especially important in this gamemode because of just how easy it makes accomplishing the objective. You can dash through minions to kill them in groups, netting you around 4 or 5 points at a time, and is really the only way you can combat reapers (unless you're using the MGL with Amped Weapons,) earning you another 5 points at a time. So, focusing on earning a lot of points in the start of the game is going to make earning points easier later in the game. So why is this a problem? Good players are rewarded for being good.

    The problem isn't good players being rewarded, it's that the other team is losing opportunities for a comeback. As soon as the match starts, it's a race to see which team can drop titans first. And that's not a problem, it's just that whichever team drops first is almost guaranteed to win the match, and really, only one player at a team needs to be this concentrated to reap the rewards for the whole team. When the other team is any more than 50 points ahead of you, you know you're going to lose, no matter how much time you have left in the clock. Nothing short of a miracle is going to promise a comeback.

    Something that would make games of attrition much more engaging, in my opinion, is some presence of comeback mechanics, and some general tweaks to the formula. Why do Spectres reward you with as many points as Grunts when they're twice as hard to kill? Because you can crush them in a titan? Make them worth 2 points and make it so that they need to be shot for them to die. Why do you practically need to be in a titan to kill a Reaper because they have so much health, when, if you're in a titan, you're the player who needs those points the least? Because then you would need to use your titan less? You already earn enough points in a titan as it is.

    I think with some tweaks like that, the best thing you could do to attrition is make it so that the winning team gets more valuable minions as the match goes on. If they're doing well, why would they need to rely on Grunts still? Why wouldn't they call in the special forces like Spectres and Reapers? It would make a slightly harder fight for the losing team, but they would earn enough points to bring the match back to neck-and-neck, and players that can't kill AI probably wouldn't be winning the game anyway. It'd turn the absolute steamroll of a gamemode into something a little more interesting.

    I understand that many people feel unhappy about the presence of comeback mechanics in games, but you don't have to give us a Mario Kart blue shell or anything. Attrition is supposed to be the casual, default gamemode of Titanfall that you can always jump back into, so why is it that it's the gamemode that, to succeed in, you need to game the system so hard? You can tastefully implement some light comeback mechanics and also have a skill-based gamemode. It's not a mutually exclusive thing.

    I'm not a game designer, just a player who feels dissatisfied with the way the most populated gamemode plays out, and I don't think you need to give it a major overhaul for it to play better. Thanks for reading.
     
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  2. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    All your ideas are good and I would have no problem if they went more in that direction and modified things. With that said I still have a great time playing this game and Attrition mode. Some games we lose some games we win I don't have a problem with it. I have made comeback victories before but I agree that it is hard to do it. But if the other team has better players they are gonna win lol but you don't want to see blowouts. I have a 53% win percentage. So for me the game has really been fine. The only problem I have is with the Lag.

    But like I said your ideas are good and I have no problem if they changed it
     
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  3. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
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    I agree with you Funky that this is definitely a problem. However, I disagree with the solution. I believe implementing some type of comeback mechanics would be treating the symptom and I always believe it is better to treat the source of the problem. I believe the source of the problem is the matchmaking system. If you had games matched up like this:
    upload_2017-1-13_19-3-2.png
    ...then the game should never get too far out of hand in one direction. This is only looking a Generations, but the algorithm could look deeper at Generation/Skill/Effectiveness. The third image shows that it would also handle clans as well.
     
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  4. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    1 or 2 players on a particular team can have a heavy influence on this game and the outcome. It's a double edge sword here , if you are on the receiving end of this then you will not like it , but if you are the one kicking the other teams ass and blowing them out then you would love it. It's a double edge sword so I don't have a problem with it. But ENsc matchmaking system would be the way to go.
     
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  5. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
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    Yeah, I'm not saying it would be perfect by any means, but it would be a lot better. You are always going to have a game here or there where maybe there is a player whose skills are off the charts. I run into that in TF1 as well.
     
  6. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    So what matchmaking system is respawn using currently in your opinion ? What would the graph look like ?
     
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  7. Ik0n88x

    Ik0n88x Generation 7
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    Respawn is currently using a matchmaking system but...

    As far as this goes, you win some you lose some. I'm not a huge fan of the every one gets a trophy movement. If you're getting beat badly, learn from what you're doing wrong. There is no such thing as failure, only learning. I personally love it when I'm playing solo and I get matched against an entire clan, gives me something extra to play for. I generally play solo and my win % is 86% though.
     
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  8. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
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    #8 ensc, Jan 13, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
    Well, I can only go by what it feels like, which to me feels like this using Attrition on U.S. Servers as an example:

    To create a new game:
    1) They look at all players available (including blocks of friends or network) in the Attrition lobby that are playing on U.S. servers who are not currently in a game. They are also ignoring the fact if you had just finished a game in the Attrition lobby (which I think is a mistake and TF1 did it better by leaving the same players together as long as they did not leave, but maybe switched players around between the two teams in between games). - THIS IS BAD, BECAUSE STARTING FRESH EACH TIME INCREASES THE WAIT AND KILLS CONTINUITY IN CHAT AND ELIMINATES GRUDGE MATCHES
    2) It appears as though they try really hard to have full teams on both sides. THIS IS GOOD AND BAD. I WOULD SAY IT IS THE ONE REALLY POSITIVE THING THEY'VE DONE TO TRY TO AT LEAST HAVE EVEN NUMBERS AT THE START. ON THE OTHER HAND IT IS BAD, BECAUSE IN TF1 YOU COULD AT LEAST START A GAME AND DIDN'T HAVE TO KEEP WAITING IF YOU JUST HAD 4 PLAYERS (2 ON EACH SIDE).
    3) Now, I can't say I've really paid a lot of attention to this, but I believe what they are doing to try to have even skill levels is to maybe at least try to have similar Generations on both sides. IF SO, THAT'S A GOOD START, BUT DOESN'T GO DEEP ENOUGH, BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TO REGEN AND SKILL AND EFFECTIVENESS SHOULD BE LOOKED AT AS WELL.
    4) Where it feels like it really falls apart is when their are blocks of friends or a network clan. It feels like they just throw that whole block on one side and then just throw their hands up and figure it's not going to be even anyway, so they just throw all the lose pieces they couldn't fit in other matches on the other side of those blocks. Since they are not going deeper than Generations, they can't account for the increased "skill" or "effectiveness" (in quotes because I despise coordinated play and it is fake to me) that comes from playing coordinated.

    What they should really be doing is having a complex algorithm that looks at each mode independantly and basically ranks all of the players in the game in that mode (not that we would see it, but they could use it for matchmaking purposes). So you would have an Attrition rank and it would be based on K/D effectiveness, Wins in last 10 games to show how you've been playing lately, etc. Then you would try to make sure both sides were as evenly matched as possible based on overall rank. And if there was a clan that all had really high ranks then they would have to sit and wait in a que until there were suitable matches for them, but they should not be allowed to just get thrown in a game with all lower ranked players on the other side and get to stomp them, because that drives players away and kills your user base. Also, if they don't like waiting, they have other options. They can break apart, pick a different server or pick a different mode.
     
  9. Ik0n88x

    Ik0n88x Generation 7
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    Also, I have played games multiple times in a row with the same people. I know it throws you out and searches again in TF2 but I've ended up in the same game with the same people quite a few times.
     
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  10. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
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    I am definitely not a fan of the everyone gets a trophy movement either, so I totally agree with you there. I also like a really good challlenge once in awhile. It's just when that becomes the natural state of the game, that's no fun.
     
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  11. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
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    Yeah, it does, but I think this is not intentional, but rather only happens by accident, where in TF1 it was intentional.
     
  12. FunkyLobster

    FunkyLobster Generation 1

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    Your fun doesn't have to come at someone's expense. Learning stuff like parkour routes comes with time, as well as abstract stuff like gamesense and deathmatch. You'll still be a pubstomper, too, it's not like comeback mechanics will make the game come back for them if they can't take advantage of comeback mechanics. Yeah, it's not a huge problem, and yeah, you win some you lose some, but it's a matter of pointing out ways things could be better. I think if attrition is going to remain the "default" gamemode of Titanfall, it's important that it's the best kind of gamemode it can be. Again, I'm no game designer, but as it stands I think the fact that knowing I could go AFK when my team is absolutely steamrolling or being stomped and make no significant difference is a big problem for this games longevity. It'd go a long way to make attrition funner for the winning and losing teams knowing something is actually at stake past the first minute or two.

    And yeah... it's also a failure of the matchmaking algorithm, something you and I have discussed before, lol. But even if players of approximately the same skill level get matched, attrition's still needs to be tweaked, because its first minute or two matters way too much.
     
  13. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    I definitely have noticed this quite a few times as of late. Same lobbies have been staying together atleast 3 games in a row. This has definitely been happening more regularly now
     
  14. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
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    #14 ensc, Jan 13, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
    Yes, I agree Funky. Even though I believe matchmaking would have the largest impact, I agree with you that there are a lot of other things that could be done to improve Attrition, because you are right, it probably will remain the "default" gamemode as it did in TF1, so it needs to be made fun for everyone. I refuse to even play it. It's not fun to me. I hated Attrition in TF1 and it took me about 1-1/2 years to even want to try to get good at it. I dominate in Attrition in TF1 now. It's just infuriating how they had to change every little thing and make it be not even the same game in any way.

    Every tool I liked is gone, changed or weakened.
    Smart Pistol - Gone (except for Boost with 12 rounds that doesn't even count), I only used it for Attrition, because as much as people bitched about it, you were a fool not to use it for Attrition. It was the absolute best weapon to use for that mode. Plus, all of the bitching was rediculous, because it never failed that those who complained used either the titan sp (Arc Cannon) or the LA-Z-BOY (Triple Threat), both of which required far less skill while being wrapped in a metal tank while the pilot with the sp was flesh and blood. Also, it was called Attrition not Pilot Hunter, so the only column that mattered was Attrition Points. Didn't matter how you got there, but some didn't get that and thought it was a d#$k measuring contest.
    Arc Grenades - Weakened
    Minion Detector Kit - Gone
    Mini Map - Piece of worthless garbage
    Stim - This is BETTER, however, with it or without it, reduced ground speed makes you sitting duck if can't bunnyhop
    Sidewinder as Anti-Titan Weapon - Gone
    Rodeo Gun Damage - Gone (I combined Sidewinder and Rodeo threat to play cat and mouse and take down 2 or 3 titans at once)
    Stryder - Gone
    ---Dash Core - Gone (combined with Minon Detector you are a minion and pilot lawn mower)
    ---Auto Eject to combine with the Nuke Eject - Gone
    ---Regenerating Shields - Gone (prevents stick and move strategy, which I prefer)

    On top of all of those unecessary changes, then they did these things to make it even less enjoyable:
    Spectres are stronger
    Added Reapers
    Slowed all titans down
    Made all titans weaker
    Killed Situational Awareness
    Made pretty much every weapon (pilot or titan) seem like you are getting 1-shot killed out of nowhere
    ---(just BOOM white shock flash) <<< this is probably the most annoying thing in the game
    Titans are given benefit of the doubt - in TF1 if you got near a titans head, you were on it, because titans should be slower and dumber than a pilot. Not now, titans have time to see you step back and shoot you. And it is almost like you have to land dead center on their head for it to give it to you.

    So, I don't know Funky, I'm with you brother. Attrition needs to me made more fun to be a strong "default" gamemode, but even if they added some type of comeback mechanics or made a perfect matchmaking system, when you look at all of these unnecessary changes, I can't imagine it ever being fun for me.
     
  15. MDVillarreal

    MDVillarreal Generation 3

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    A decent, competent team can overcome an early deficit. Unless you are an extraordinary player or you play regularly with a group, your win percentage will probably hover around 50%.
     
  16. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    EN but why don't you just try to keep playing attrition , I think you will eventually be really good at it. Don't go into the games expecting to do well just use it as a learning experience. I know you don't like the killing aspect but maybe in time you will find a side to this game you never seen before and actually start to like it. Which Titan do you like to use ? Also I don't know your play style but I know you told me you would get killed very fast over and over and there was no situational awareness. Well perhaps try to play slower , keep your head on a swivel but play slower and stay on the perimeters of the maps. Get accustomed to how people are playing the map. It's all about a feel . Some teams camp more , and they wait for you to move around and they pick you off , other teams might play faster and more mobile , so you should adjust your style to what your seeing .

    Which weapons do you typically use ? And what tactile are you using ?
     
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  17. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
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    Omega, I really like you a lot. You are a really good guy and I especially appreciate you encouraging me to keep trying and offering tips. And who knows, maybe I will keep trying at it at some point. It is hard to explain, but I don't like rules, guidelines, restrictions or logistics. This is why I would never want to play on a professional team. I don't want to have one specific role. I don't want to have to worry about what others are doing. I don't want them to be looking out for me and I don't want to be looking out for them. Any of those things feel like handcuffs to me. I want to just be a completely free spirit. It is the same with worrying about what the other team is doing. I don't care what they are doing. I am going to play my game no matter what. Now sure, if I notice someone picking me off, because they are camping, then as soon as I respawn, I'm going to go right back there and give them a boot to the face, but I'm not going to change my style. I like to just fly around the map, never stopping, always changing direction and altitude to be unpredictable (especially right after shooting), and that goes for as a pilot or as a titan. TF1 allowed this with the maintained momentum as a pilot when touching the ground. It also allowed this with the Stryder who's normal speed is faster than Ronin and with it's Dash Core is probably like 10X Ronin's speed. I mean, tell me you don't need to get ya some of this Omega:

    Doesn't that show why I feel handcuffed in TF2?

    This is the reason I loved TF1, because I it made me feel free and like I could express myself. TF2 feels like I got slowed down and forced into a tight box that COD or FPS players love so they can get kill streaks. I can't express myself any more, but they get to express themselves at my expense. That's not fun for me.
     
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  18. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

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    Hey man thanks for the kind words and I respect you big time on here you are very knowledgeable and friendly to talk to even in a disagreement. I definitely see your point now between the 2 games. The speed of Tf1 was greater and it allowed you to get to the targets faster. So if you got killed from someone across the map you would respawn hit a few walls and move like the flash and ambush him. I definitely was not aware that you actually could keep your momentum when you hit the ground in Tf1 , that must have been an amazing experience to move so fast constantly like that. When respawn said they slowed Tf2 down I didn't know in what way , but now I know. And you hate the changes to Tf2 because they slowed it down just enough to cater to the fps fans. I clearly see the differences here in the 2 games. My thing is , how does Respawn take full advantage of the weapons in the game if they didn't slow the game down a bit? Like the high speed of the game clearly favors the smg guns and shot guns and pistols , but what about the assault rifles and lmg's ? Like wouldn't they be limiting their options as far as the weapon variety goes in a Tf1 system ? I without a doubt see your point that Tf1 was the more impressive game , what I just don't know is if the game changed a bit because it really had to for the ability to have more variety and play styles? People do like having the options of different play styles and using different weapon types but having all the weapons be effective , in a faster system like Tf1 (although Amazing) respawn might have ultimately felt the players were a little limited with the variety and effectiveness of weapons. And the titans speed suffer now too , because with the slower pilots in Tf2 it probably would have created to much of an imbalance if you kept the titans at the Tf1 speed. Obviously I can see how heartbreaking these changes are to you and in a way i feel that a bit too. Because I see the awesomeness that Tf1 had , but I still don't know if that could have been sustained for future games if Respawn didn't open up the variety more with the weapons. But what ended up happening to Tf2 was the worst case scenario for Respawn. Not only did you lose a lot of that awesomeness Tf1 had but the changes implemented were supppsed to help Tf2 become more popular and sell a lot more copies. Well we obviously know that hasn't happened, so Respawn so far has lost big on all there bets unfortunately.


    As far as you changing your play style , no I don't want you to change your play style I just mean for you to be more flexible with it. So if you are trying to zip around the map but you keep dying because you got the campers waiting for you then slow down your play and move a little more cautiously exposing yourself less until your in better position . Then when you start breaking up there little camping session now you got them on the run and you can mix up your style from fast to slow. Sometimes you gotta play that mix up game. It's harder for you to zip around the map now because you don't have the Tf1 speed so you can get picked off a lot easier in this game UNLESS you do that bunny hop. But that's what I mean you can have multitude of styles in this game , variety is your friend. Close range -long range , fast- slow , weapon variety, it's all there in this game.
     
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  19. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
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    #19 ensc, Jan 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
    Thank you for the kind words too my friend. That means a lot coming from you. Also, thank you for trying to see things from my point of view. I can understand your appreciation of the current state, because you come from a perspective of appreciating the more twitchy FPS games. Although, I think you are open minded enough that you would also love TF1 if you got a chance to play it. I really don't know which you would like more. I know Ik0n loves both, because prior to TF1, I think he came from more of the world you appreciate, so when they made the changes in TF2, he still appreciated it, because he had already loved games like that prior to TF1. He and I have for the most part just agreed to disagree and I think we are pretty respectful of each other for the most part and try not to step on each other's toes too much or get in any heated arguments, but I think we both will stick up for our point of views if we need to. That is the great thing about these forums. We can have very strong opposing opinions, but still get along and respect each other.

    With that being said, I would like to try to express my opinions or theories to address some of your questions or comments:

    The problem here, in my opinion, are the premises of these questions or comments. I'm not singling you out here, because I think some shared your opinions as well as Respawn themselves. However, I would argue that starting with these premises was the source of the entire problem. First, in my opinion, all of the weapons in TF1 were extremely effective in the right hands. There were great short range, mid range and long range players. I would argue that the weapons were more well behaved in TF1 though. They were more effective at the range they were designed for. In TF2, I think it is a problem and I would say a downgrade of the game that you can get easier mid range kills with short range weapons and easier long range kills with mid range weapons. That is not a good thing. My point is the weapons were fine. And, there were some absolute magicians in TF1. I think you would appreciate this, so I will share a video with you of a guy I've chatted with who was an absolute magician with the Kraber. He explained to me how he got so good. He played on a very small monitor, which you will see in the video and he had a very bad frame rate for a long time, so he had to get really good at depending on other senses and especially sound. What resulted is he just has unbelievable instincts, reflexes and accuracy. I know this seems a little creepy in the beginning, but he is trying to make fun of the people who claim that he was a hacker. Just give it a chance until the game play starts at around 1:15. I think you will truly enjoy this.


    Anyway, my point is the weapon usage was fine and actually exactly the way it should have been in TF1.

    Here is my theory on what happened:
    1) There were those of us, like myself, who didn't like traditional FPS shooters and loved this game, because it was unique and you felt free and could express yourself.
    2) There were some like Ik0n, who love traditional FPS games, but are open minded and appreciate the game for it's uniqueness as well. However, I think Ik0n was in the minority when it came to most traditional FPS gamers.
    3) I think most traditional FPS gamers hated it, because for the most part they like tight, predictable maps with generally slower movement. They prefer to find a "good" spot where they can keep there back to something and rotate around it with good sight lines and basically just sit in that spot and get kill streaks.
    4) They hated TF1, because:
    a) The maps were so large and things were spread out so much that they couldn't really sit in one spot so much, because the game wouldn't just come to them.
    b) There were so many features that allowed other players to spot them and blow them out of their precious spots, such as:
    i) Pilots being able to whizz around the map at different altitudes who could also maintain their momentum even when touching the ground and even if they couldn't bunnyhop, so the players never sat still or slowed down long enough for them to get a good shot off. And then that player spotted them as they whizzed past and came back and blew them out of their precious spot.
    ii) Faster, stronger titans could take and damge they inflicted on them, dash around the corner, regen their shield and then rush back in and blow them out of their precious spot.
    iii) The beautiful, beautiful smart pistol, allowed players to whizz around the map and the gun would actually spot players for them, so they could come back and finish them off and blow out of their precious spot.
    5) Because of all of this, my theory is since Respawn comes from the traditional FPS world, they got an absolute earful from the players described in #3 and listened to them rather than the players in #1 and #2.
    6) Therefore, if you look at it through that lens, almost every design decision fits.
    7) Plus, some feel they needed to do this to build a bigger user base.

    Here are my opinions about why I think all of this was a total disaster of a mistake:
    A) TF1 was truly a unique game and most traditional FPS gamers hated it, which was a good thing, because it prevented it from being infected with FPS clans that had been coordinating play for years. TF2 is suffering from this plague now and Live Wire is probably going to make the disease worse.
    B) Traditional FPS players already have a huge library of games to choose from. Heck, I think COD has 14 of it's own. Therefore, to rip the unique heart out of Titanfall to make another traditional FPS game is foolish. That is like shooting yourself in the foot.
    C) If the COD community, who like I said already had a large library, was not satisfied with the current state of COD, fine, but then make another better COD game in the COD world. Don't try to make a better COD game inside of what was a beautifully, unique world that was Titanfall.
    D) But that is exactly what they did. They listened to the people in #3 and completely ignored the people in #1 and #2. Now the people in #2 are probably not as upset, but the fact that they completely ignored the people in #1 is despicable in my opinion.

    Here is what should have happened instead:
    -larger maps, I mean HUGE maps
    -faster titans
    -faster pilots
    -wallrunning titans
    -stronger jetpacks for pilots to get around those HUGE maps when not in titans
    -battle bikes (motorcycles) for pilots to get around those HUGE maps when not in titans
    -titans throwing pilots to get them across the map faster
    -all of this would have discouraged traditional FPS players even more and kept those clans out and GOOD!!!

    Just think about how exciting and awesome and epic a game like that would be compared to what we have now.

    And this is EXACTLY right Omega my friend and it is a crying shame. We can only imagine what could have been if they had listened to the people they should have listened to.
     
  20. Ik0n88x

    Ik0n88x Generation 7
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    You're right. I came from Unreal Tournament / Unreal 2: The Awakening. Very twitchy, fast-paced games.