Matchmaking sbmm?

Discussion in 'General Titanfall discussion' started by Omega82, Aug 9, 2017.

Image has been removed.
URL has been removed.
Email address has been removed.
Media has been removed.
  1. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
    Elite Pilot

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,725
    Thanks buddy! I believe that might alleviate some of the problem, but if that is all that is done, you are probably still going to end up with lopsided games whether you are in the ranked or unranked sections. The unranked might not feel as bad, but they would both probably still suffer from lopsidedness if nothing else is done.
     
  2. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    293
    What a great breakdown , bravo my man . So if I understand correctly you would have a set of players in a waiting room and if someone drops out of the game you then get selected quickly and put into that game? Sorry that's the only thing I'm not sure I quite understand. As far as selecting different difficulty modes online I think is a very innovative idea , and it could greatly help a lot of the newer players from getting frustrated right away. My only concern would be if there are enough people playing online to make that system a viable option. It perhaps could split the player base too much and cause to much problems finding matches . With a plentiful number of online players then that system can work much better . As far as the 3 blocks you used as examples I definitely think the first 2 blocks are absolutely fine. And that's basically all you would need to make the matchmaking ideal I would say. So if you have a team of friends who are all gen 10 they would be matched against of team of all 10's? That's the only thing I'm not sure of what your solution is.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    293
    You have to expand the text in my post above because I replied to every paragraph in bold and italic letters. Obviously I didn't reply the correct way but that's the only way I knew how to reply to what you said in order
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    293
    This could be something looked into for future games , again I'm not entirely sure if it would split the online community to much where it can cause problems finding matches. But if it won't be a problem then it's definitely something developers should look into.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Getmused

    Getmused Generation 4

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    197
    @ensc for sure. I thought with the combination of he two (your mm and ranked/nonranked) it could really help alleviate some lopsided matches
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
    Elite Pilot

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,725
    Thank you guys! I really appreciate it. Something like this I have and will put a lot of time into and it makes it feel like it was worth it if someone feels like it might be useful.

    It does sound like Advanced Warfare really suffered from a lot of problems and maybe the way they implemented SBMM may have contributed to it. I don't know, but I trust your judgement.

    I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here Omega. I know from experience only because I never ever play coordinated. I only try to play as a strong individual and never ever look for help. I play every moment of the game as if there are going to be 3 coordinated players on top of me at any moment, because of that, when it does happen, I usually surprise them with my preparedness. When I play with friends, I only choose friends who play the same way, so they are also strong individuals who never look for help. Here is what I have found from experience. If you just put me and 1 other person who plays like me on a team with 4 other players who are at least average players, we can beat a strong clan playing coordinated. Here is why I believe this. You have to think of the mindset of a clan. They all have their roles. Their roles are dependant on other's doing their roles at the same time. They are always looking for help and expect it to just be there. This inherently makes them very weak as individual players. So, think about this, let's say a pair of them runs into me and I take them both out. This not only surprises them, but it dirupts their game and makes the other 4 weaker, because those 2 are not fulfulling their roles for a few moments. Then the other person like me takes out another pair them were moving together. Now, besides surprising them and disrupting their game again, now they are probably on their mics going "WTF?", so now we are in their heads and their mental game is messed up for the rest of the game. Each time we take them down from that point is like a snowball of frustration and now they are flailing around, not playing their game and they become even easier kills. Now, even the average players on our team can start getting kills on them. I had a perfect experience of this happen in a Hardpoint Domination on the Demeter map in TF1. I asked my one friend if he minded if I joined him. He said, "Sure, but there is a pro clan on the other side and my team is getting destroyed." When I joined it was luckily right between games, just as Demeter was starting, so I got to play the entire game. I could see right away by the other team's names that they were definitely a complete clan. Other than my buddy, my team didn't know each other and never played together before, none of us played coordinated, but because my buddy is a strong individual player like myself, my team won, I was the MVP and the members of the clan were furious and it was completely delightful. :)

    You are right, I do play a lot of Hardpoint and coordination is more impactful there. However, it does happen in Attrition too, when every one of your deaths is while are facing someone like a man and getting shot in the side of the head or back by one of their buddies. That's how you can tell.

    Thank you very much Omega! I really appreciate it and it is very kind of you. OK, so here is how I see it working if it is a group of Gen 10s. It is their choice to play together, but they don't have to. They could break up and play as individuals. So, with that being said, if they choose to play as a group, then I would only put either an equal group on the other side or random individuals of equal skill on the other side. Now, let's say it takes awhile to find a match, they could split up and probably find a game faster, but if they choose to be stubborn and stay together then they may have to wait a little longer.
     
  7. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    293
    Just have to add maybe it's my mistake when I refer to sbmm I am referring to the third block that you used as an example. I am strictly talking about that block. The other blocks of course are fine .

    Not sure why respawn changed the matchmaking where it changes the lobby your in after each match , to answer your question yes I would say the Tf1 matchmaking is better in that aspect. I am curious to why respawn changed it , not that I think it's a terrible idea but it hasn't been executed properly .

    Right now I'm playing the game WITH my router connected and so far have seen no lag. I wonder if this new matchmaking tweak respawn has done has also helped the horrible lag I would always experience. Not sure. Maybe a coincidence maybe not.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    293
    But the matchmaking with the mixed modes is really not working good at all. I search for 2 modes Attrition and Titan brawl and 80-90% of the time I get titan brawl.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
    Elite Pilot

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,725
    I think part of the reason was laziness. I believe it takes more work from a programming standpoint to have a matchmaking algorithm and try to build matches that have even sides. It is much easier to just throw everyone into a big melting pot and then pull however many you need for the mode you want to start a game for, only trying to have the numbers equal on both sides, but not caring about the skill makeup at all. I believe it is easier for them to just pull them from a big pool all at once rather than assemble a game piece by piece.

    I think another part of the reason was so that you would have less information up front. I believe they don't want you to see the teams being built, because if you don't see them before the game starts you are less likely to leave. They also did not want you to be able to even see a player's legitimate Generation either, which is why they allow you to put a Patch that either has nothing to do with Generation or could even be a misrepresentation of your actual Generation. Actually, I just thought of another layer to this that I had never even thought of before. Even despite all of that, there would be another way to tell if a game was lopsided at the start and that would be if you were playing against the same players you just played against in the previous game (as in TF1), but they even take that information from you as well by throwing you in with an entirely new lot on which you have no information.

    All of that combined leads to what I call backdoor poor matchmaking, because you don't see the teams until the game starts and it is deceptive, because the numbers may be even, but you can't see the legitimate generations, so you can only tell that it is a mismatch when the stronger team gets their boosts faster, then titans faster, then titan cores faster, but by this time now you've invested a chunk of your time so it is harder to leave. Basically, they have lured you into wasting a chunk of your life to fill in a slot in their poorly matched game and that is absolutely not cool at all.

    Frankly, I am astonished with how they have treated matchmaking as if it is so unimportant and insignificant for 2 releases now.

    And yes, this is exactly right. This is the other MAJOR negative side effect of this new lazy system. Not only do they throw you in the melting pot with everyone else after each game to create a brand new lopsided game with a whole new set of people, but they pay no regard to where you came from before. They completely ignore what you just did. This is why when you play a mode (Frontier Defense, Amped Hardpoint, whatever), you can sometimes get the same map 3, 4 or 5 times in a row, because they just don't care where you came from. This is why when you would play one of those 24/7 lobbies when a new map came out, which was supposed to be a mix of Bounty Hunt, Attrition and Amped Hardpoint, you would end up playing Bounty Hunt 3, 4 or 5 times in a row, because they just don't care where you came from. And, yes in your example, you wanted to play a mix of Attrition and Titan Brawl, because that is what "Mix Tape" is supposed to mean, right? And you get Titan Brawl, Titan Brawl, Titan Brawl, again, because they just don't care where you came from. It is sheer and utter laziness.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    293

    I don't understand how a team as good as respawn can be so lazy then. Their creation of call of duty turned into the biggest game in the world , took the shooter genre by storm. Then they leave and they create another historic all time franchise which is titanfall. How could a team who is this talented be "lazy" and have such problems with the matchmaking and other things. I really don't get why they would be lazy , it's not like the game was a smashing success sales wise where they can just sit back in their chairs and celebrate the monster success they've had. The studio must be too small or something , I just don't get it. Or maybe they didn't have the right personnel to handle the network side of things ? I just can't understand why laziness would be a key component here. I wish we had more answers
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
    Elite Pilot

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,725
    I know that lazy may sound like a strong term, but since I am a computer programmer, I have an idea of what it would take to do SBMM right and it really just isn't that difficult. You just have to think it is important and then decide you are going to do it. They obviously don't think it is important, otherwise, with the minimal amount of effort it would take, they would have done it already. Maybe lazy isn't the right term, but they certainly don't seem to care about it. That is perfectly clear. And switching from the TF1 lobby system to the TF2 Networks system was an unbelievably serious downgrade in so many ways.
    1) Loss of continuity between players during a session
    2) Loss of continuity of chat during a session
    3) Getting pulled out after each game and having to wait for new game to be built
    4) Getting the same map multiple times in a row (in the same mode)
    5) Getting the same mode multiple times in a row (in a 24/7 lobby)
    6) Getting the same mode multiple times in a row (in a Mix Tape)
    ...and on top of all of that, still having lopsided games, but now in a less transparent way, and mechanisms built into the game to make the lopsidedness even worse during the game (Boosts faster, Titans faster, Titan cores faster)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. sixcrowsilver

    sixcrowsilver Generation 1

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1
    I created an account to post in this thread ("long time listener, first time caller" sorta deal).

    I get the concept of SBMM in theory. Different players have different skill level. As a game developer and business, you want to attract and keep the largest audience possible. However, new players, lesser-skilled players, and casual players are vulnerable to negative experiences at the hands of more experienced, skilled, hardcore players. Players who have overwhelmingly negative experiences with a game, or an aspect of a game, are unlikely to continue playing. So SBMM is implemented to keep that from happening.

    But as it was mentioned earlier in this topic, it needs to be done right. And I, personally, strongly believe that SBMM has been implemented very, very poorly in Titanfall 2. To the point where it's near unplayable. I have many reasons (opinions) on why that is, and I'd be glad to discuss them all. But for now, I'll keep it to one.

    Playing with friends of different skill levels is a serious problem
    . I picked up TF2 on release with one of my buddies so we could enjoy it together, and I absolutely loved everything about it. But because of whatever type/level of SBMM that's currently in this game, we can't anymore - because we're different skill levels. So, when my buddy plays solo, he does well, he experiences shorter wait times and less lag, and most importantly he has fun. But when we team up and play together, it's the exact opposite and he usually signs off pretty quickly, specifically because he doesn't enjoy it. He's told me multiple times about the consistent, blatant differences between playing solo VS playing in a lobby with me. The last session we had, he stopped after a few matches and said, "Sorry, I've tried, but I don't enjoy playing in lobbies with you, and I didn't buy the game for us to play separately. So if this doesn't change, I'm done."

    Cool.

    SBMM in multiplayer, at least how it’s been implemented thus far, fosters a divide. Now you have friends who don’t have fun, specifically, when playing together. The alternative is to either play separately (which should never be an acceptable solution), or go find/play a different game together (which shouldn’t be an acceptable solution for any developer). I personally believe that any system that actively makes it more difficult to enjoy a game when playing together with friends, due to them being different skill levels, is significantly flawed. How a developer can not see that, or not care enough to correct it, baffles me. Seriously, you're punished for playing with real-life friends if their skill level is different. That is so fundamentally defective, and it ruins the fun/enjoyment of what should be an amazing experience with this game... at least for me. Players leaving for any reason is not good for the game. SBMM fixed one reason and created another.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Omega82

    Omega82 Generation 5

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    293
    #33 Omega82, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017

    I'm sorry that you and your friend haven't been able to enjoy the game playing together. As I mentioned earlier Sbmm that is programmed to put to many high skilled players in the same game isn't a good idea. Ensc posted 3 charts which represented matchmaking algorithms that are possibly used in multiplayer. The Sbmm that they should be shooting for is basically a mix of skill levels on the same team and opposing team but it's balanced for competion. So if you are a level 10 player then there will be a level 10 player on the opposing team to balance with you. And if your friend is a level 3 player there should be a level 3 player on the other team for balance. My issue was let's say I'm a level 10 player and they match me against all level 10 players or better on the opposing team. That's what I don't like , I feel like sbmm in that example makes the game less fun in a few different ways. I rather see a mix of skills on each team but have them balanced properly. Ensc posted his first 2 charts which represent a good and fair matchmaking code.

    As far as what titanfall 2 is using , honestly I have no idea. Since owning the game back in November I have felt the matchmaking was very inconsistent at times but overall it always evened out at the end of the day. As an example if I played 6 hours in one day I could get a stretch of some really easy games where my team blows the other team out , then I can get a stretch of really hard games where my team is getting blown out , then I can get a stretch where both teams are neck and neck and pretty even games coming down to a very close score. This variety would be all in the same day. So now if you judge each game individually you can say well the matchmaking sucks because either my team was winning easy or my team was losing easy . But the way i looked at it was that at the end of the day my overall experience with the matchmaking was it turned out pretty even, a lot of up and downs in between but at the end there's a semblance of balance there , win big , lose big, even games ... ( that to me is showing there's still a balance) it's just that maybe it's more of a roller coaster ride with highs and lows but in the end the highs and lows are even thus creating a balance.

    I really don't play with anyone because unfortunately nobody I know is still playing this game. I always am playing solo. Maybe Ensc can better describe to you what exactly is happening with the matchmaking when you play with your friends. I just know atleast for me personally I never felt like abandoning Tf2 over frustration with matchmaking.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. ensc

    ensc Generation 7
    Elite Pilot

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,725
    #34 ensc, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
    Thank you for creating an account and contributing six. Welcome aboard. Glad to have you here. You have shed light on another possible negative side effect of what they are doing or not doing that I had not even considered. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that if you are more skilled than your friend that when he plays in a group with you, it is almost as if he is punished for it. Is that correct? If so, it reveals yet another flaw in what they are currently doing. It would be one of their minimal rules that would be something like, "If you are playing in a group (of any size), then you will be put against another group (of any size)". That would make sense in your case, because if you are only in a group of 2, then if you are getting put up against a group of 3, 4, 5 or 6 (who may be playing more coordinated than the 2 of you), it probably feels overwhelming to your friend.

    With that in mind, this seems to be the extent of their matchmaking rules:
    1) Throw everyone into a melting pot between games.
    2) Make sure both teams have the same number of players (ignoring skill level completely)
    3) If there is a group on one side, then there needs to be a group on the other side (ignoring skill level and the sizes of the groups completely)

    Thanks for your kind words Omega.
    Here are the charts he was referring to six:
    [​IMG]
    To me, this is how SBMM should be done. The first 2 on the left are all individual players, no groups, but see how both sides are evenly balanced skill-wise. The third one had a group of 5 highly skilled players on the left hand side, but see how even though the right hand side was all individuals, it still balanced both sides skill-wise. Now, let's just say for sake of example that you are a Gen 10 and your friend is a Gen 2 and you were playing in a group. The 2 of you could be the 10 and 2 on the left hand side of the first chart, but the other side should be balanced with equal skill level. However, it seems like what they are doing is that if the 2 of you were playing as a group, then they would not even allow you in those first 2 games, because neither of them had other groups, so they would throw you on the right hand side of the third game, because you were a group and there was a group on the left. That seems to be exactly what is happening.